Our business is an has relied on a substantial Dataease for dos application built and running in 4.53. 

We have looked into moving it forward many times but due to time restraints and the fact that we use it all the time we never got around to doing it.

As we are celebrating it's 25 year anniversary soon we are again thinking of moving it forward, but what is the best route?

I see from the DataEase site that they are not very "enthusiastic" about migrating from DFD to DataEase 8 but I see that Ffenics looks to be more so.

http://www.ffenics.com/ffenics-migrations/

However, does anyone have experiences with either and are willing to share their viewpoint..

As far as I can tell, the Ffenics migration is a service and I would rather do this myself.

It would be nice if someone could point out the differences between Ffenics 1.6 and DataEase 8.2

Thanks.

Hi Ian. I hope you get a lot of replies from other users and our partners, with both advice and offers of assistance.

It is true that we are not very enthusiastic about migrating DFD applications to DataEase 8.5. It is a sad truth that direct migration from DFD to DFW has never really worked. DFW and DFD is very different tools so simply trying to convert a DFD app to DFW invariably made a mongrel with the worst of two worlds, rather than the best.

In MY mind a "one-click" solution for DFD users to continue using their apps in DFW should have been in place from day one but as it wasn't, migrating became a costly and arduous task that was not in the tradition of "Ease".

We have re-visited this issue many times since, lastly a couple of years ago when it again became apparent that DFD was "dying" due to it not being able to run in x64 versions of Windows which is now very much the standard.

However! A lot of water has flowed under a lot of bridges since then and what would have been a feasible and good idea done in 1995 is in 2015 simply a "paper" dream.

The sad truth is that DataEase (and Ffenics which is very much only DataEase 7) has not moved forward very much from 1995 till 2010.

DataEase used to be ahead of competition but after the release of DFW one must only surmise that they had burnt themselves so badly that they moved more and more away from innovation and progress and the strategy became regressive and conservative.

They concentrated on "bug fixing" and "stability" rather than improvement and innovation.

I say they, because the development team was led by what is now Ffenics. The current team at DataEase started working with DataEase after this "was let go" and went to form Ffenics.

The product we took over was not in any way the right product for DataEase and definitely not the right product for DFD users to move too.

We took over DataEase because we believe in the "idea" of DataEase not the technology as it was at this point, which we strongly disapproved off!

Ffenics is basically DataEase as it was when we took over DataEase and even though they most likely had "ambitious" plans when they first started they very quickly fell into the same "thrall" as they had in DataEase and no significant change/improvement was done to the product and less and less so as time has passed.

Today when DataEase 8 is leaps and bounds ahead of DataEase 7 with more than 100% new functionality compared to 7.2, and with a vastly improved migration tool, we would still not recommend any DFD users to migrate to 8.x, and from this it would be natural and easy to deduct that we would even more strongly dissuade the same users from migrating to Ffenics.

It might be true that Ffenics has a better migration path than we have, but that doesn't change the fact that the product is outdated without any actual R&D being done to the product itself.

DFD is of a design and functionality that was developed around 1980 so obviously a product designed and developed around 1990 would be more "modern" but 25 years later it is outdated and obsolete and without any strong and dedicated R&D resources it will fall further and further behind as both Ffenics and DataEase has been doing up till now.

We are honest enough to admit that DataEase for Windows has fallen behind and we still don't know if we will be able to bring it completely up to the standard we expect and want in 2015 and 2020 as the core is still the same as Ffenics and DFW 7.x, but at least we invest the time and resources to try to change this and we will not hoodwink any of you to believe it is a modern product when it so obviously isn't.

If you are to invest in moving your DFD app forward, you will not get around a substantial investment in both time and money so don't believe in "salesmans sh..". There is no quick fix, so do a proper evaluation and look outside the box. Only choose DataEase again if you think we will be the best solution for you, and only do the same if you are thinking of Ffenics - would you really want to choose a product that is already outdated and where there is no commitment or drive for R&D?

Have a good look around and see if there is a product for you "off the shelf" or find a modern product which you are comfortable with. 

We are work every day to make this product as good as it can be, and no venue shall be untried for us to do that but we are not there yet but we are getting closer and closer.

For too long the business strategy (including Ffenics) has been to convert and migrate DFD to DFW/Ffenics without any real benefit for the users.

Our strategy is to get NEW development in DataEase. 

Only when new applications is being developed will the product be good enough for old customers to re-develop their applications.

Hi Ian,

I am not sure whether I have spoken to you or not. I know DataEase vendor here is not being positive about DataEase them selves. May be they had a bad day or something :-). 

Having said that, I do conversions all the time. All my life with DataEase, just conversions, migrations, upgrades taken about 90% of my time. Even as I am self-employed right now. 75% is conversion work. I always thing about learning new products. Creating applications...etc. I am an independent IT consultant. Working with another product called AlphaAnywhere. But, I don't have time to do projects in Alpha. Because DataEase work is eating up all my time. That means of course income.

Since you are deciding on moving from 4.53. I don't know much about fFenics. But, one thing I would recommend. If you are planning to move up and looking for cost savings. Then definitely move into DataEase 8.2. Later when 8.5 comes out, you will be able to bring up.

Based on DataEase vendor's comments, only time I would advise against DataEase. If DataEase vendor is planning to discontinue the product. And that would be very sad.

Regards
Arul
www.IT365days.com
 

I forgot to mention one of the video I did long time ago;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBblKVl3UUA

Planning to do another one soon with version 8.5 features. Like I said, I need 36 hours in a day :-)

Regards
Arul

I guess we need to make a correction here ;-)

1. We do of course recommend DataEase 8.2 for development work, and even more so 8.5. We wouldn't have made it if we didn't believe in it and with as much new functionality as old it is a fantastic bridge between new and old.

2.What we don't recommend is for anyone with a successful and long standing DFD application to think it is a "easy fix" to migrate it to 8.x. Yes, you can automate the migration but the application you get is not fit for purpose.

3. IF you decide to migrate it should be with the help of a partner like Arul or DataEase Professional Services etc, then you will get the best out of both worlds.

4. However, we will still strongly recommend that the old app is used for inspiration and as a "blueprint" as a fresh implementation will be a much better fundament for the future than something built on the business logic from 1980.

5. We DO believe that DFD customers would overall benefit from moving to DE8 rather than anything else, but we have also seen a lot struggle since they try to use it like DFD and when it is different (it will need to be, it is 25 years apart) they get frustrated, so for this reason alone it might be a good idea to look at a fresh product as that way one will not think that it should and would work like DFD.

6. When it comes to ffenics I just need to point out that there is no significant difference between 1.0 (2007) and 1.63(2015), so if you look for "stability" it might be a good choice but as there was no significant difference from DataEase 7.1 to Ffenics 1.0 don't think it is a modern product . I will go as far as saying that 8.5 is not a modern product, but it is getting very close after 5 years of dedicated development and improvement.

"Based on DataEase vendor's comments, only time I would advise against DataEase. If DataEase vendor is planning to discontinue the product. And that would be very sad."

We don't plan to discontinue DataEase, rather the opposite. I would think the fact that we invest heavily in its development with frequent release of new versions should indicate rather the opposite.

We are building a future for DataEase and to do that we need to focus on the future of the product and that means leaving the past behind. 

I agree with Mr DataEase. Having been a 4.53 Dos user for many years ( and still work a little with it for fun ), we have found that it is not just an easy job to convert an old application.

What needs to be done is look at the existing application and its purpose ( not the DE 4.53 implementation of this )  and see how you would approach the design from a modern point of view. 

( In no particular order )

Would you want horizontal tabs.

Would you want lookup boxes ( with or without dependency on its content.)

Would you want different colours based on selection

Would you want documents or pictures embedded in the application.

Would you want large memo fields ( not limited to DE 4.53 size  )

Would you want to import and export to and from Excel ( for example )

Would you want ODBC facilities .

Would you want to Email from your application.

Would you want to interact with CRM's and Outlook. (e.g. import emails into database )

Would you want to interact with an SQL backend database 

Would you want Cloud access

Would you want Mail merge

Would you want advanced reporting ( modelled on the simplicity and power of DE 4.53 ) but much more.

Would you want access via a Iphone / Android. 

Would you want it to run on a non OS specific platform ( eg Java ).

Would you want it to interact with a TAPI device or a 3CX phone system.

Would you want it to accept spoken input or spoken output.

Would you want it to run specific operations or reports based on a timed or recurring or event criteria.

Would you want it to run simultaneous multi language versions dependent upon user requirements.

Would you want multi-threading operations.

Would you require embedding of external program calls.

Would you require multi media content.

Would you want to input data using a pen writing device. ( data capture options )

I am sure there are other criteria that can be added.

 Once you have identified what is required or would be nice to have, then set out in a table the strengths and weaknesses of each particular database system.

Design and concept of a data base requires at least 75% of the time. The more time you spend planning the better the final result will be., 

 BUT is that the final result ?.. Plan for possible expansion and changes in the model and market in which it it use.

 Once you have identified the tool to use then the hard work of Normalisation of Data begins.

Search the web for this topic. There are many examples

http://www.yourarticlelibrary.com/database/3-stage...

and finally

But for a hope of something after Dataease ?

Which puzzles the brain, and doth confound the sense,

( sorry Shakespeare )

Here is a case in point from the House of Commons who used to use Dataease. ( Pity they did not look at DE 8 )

https://emu.kesoftware.com/downloads/EMu/UserGroup...

Did theThe House of Commons database look forward to the future. Is all the data now in the cloud or on a server, rather than still on CD's ?

Really! we can talk about this subject for months. But, in the end. Just few things anyone need for decision making;

When it comes to my Honda Civic. I can take it to Honda dealer to get something fixed for US$500. Or just do it myself after watching YouTube.
All comes down to money and time.

1. What features do I need when I move DFD into something else?
2. What is the budget?
3. How much time I have for this move?
4. Do I understand DE8 is not DFD. That means you might have to give up some functionality and gain some functionality. This is where lot of my clients get's upset. I have seen and still speak to lot of clients, who is stuck in the DOS world still. Don't know or don't want to get out of it. For those people, yes Mr DataEase is correct. They should not be even thinking about DE8. Because, they don't appreciate how far technology moved. Including DE8.x.

Once you have the answer to the above. Then you can decide which way to go. DE8.x or other 100s of software out there.

Regards

Arul
www.it365days.com

Just to follow up on the brilliant Car analogy... ;-)

I am a Volvo person and my first Volvo was a brilliant (but very basic) 1972 Volvo 144 Saloon.

Now I have a new V70 D5.

I stick to Volvo because there is a logical line in their "development". The new V70 still basically is as much Volvo as the 1972 144, so you can say they have migrated the 1972 144 petrol Saloon into a new V70 Diesel Estate without losing the essence of a Volvo but without using any of the original code (parts).

This is what we do with the new DataEase and this is what you need to do with your application. 

Retain the brilliance of the solution without re-using old and outdated parts.

Hi Ian

In my opinion a 1-for-1 upgrade/conversion from DFD to DataEase 8 is simply an expensive waste of an opportunity!  Even if you think your DFD system does "exactly what you want", "what is available" has changed considerably since the system was written.

Some of the options now available to you have been mentioned before in this topic, so I won't repeat them, but if you are considering taking your DFD data forward into a new system, you should also be giving consideration to:-

a) Whether you want all of it

b) How will you determine which records you need to keep/transfer

c) Will the data pass the new system's basic validation or will it need tidying up

d) The time and effort required to do this - This may be more than you expect for a variety of reasons i.e. If the original system was not well designed or the exact way that uniqueness is checked was not properly understood

Regards

Peter Birney

www.pb-associates.co.uk