Hi. I'm new here and I wonder if DE9 is, or at least will be as good for an end-user so I dont have to program in SQL and C#?

The support could not give me an answer of the capabillity of distribute the database on the cloud so my end-users can easily access the Databse via its front-end from my web-page. Nor what it would cost to have it in the cloud?

Can someone please help me out here. I will give DE a last chance before I start programming in SQL and C# and use it in MS Azure.

Sincerely,

Daniel

Thank you very much for your honest answer. I think I have to abondone this sinking ship then. Very sorry though because I like that it is easy to use. However, the development of DE is way to slow and there is no clear answer when DE9 66% and DE9 100% will be released and 100% is what I have understood the version which will allow web and cloud interface!

Will continue with DE6.52 to develop my MVP for the real deal in SQL!

Sincerely,

Daniel

Hi Daniel

I beg to differ :-) 

DE8.5 is already an excellent platform.  From experience, I can say that there is nothing that cannot be done with DE8.5.  

I have been using the DE9 beta to develop a new solution - a timeshare & hotel reservation system.  I can say that the 33% beta is already a huge leap forward and a lot better than DE8.5.  Apart from there is a lot of functionality that is still not documented and we are not using.

So, in my opinion, it is not a sinking ship.....but its a development platform which is getting better and better.

I have used Alpha, VB/SQL, and others.....but nothing beats DataEase.

Kind regards

Josef

Hi Josef. Thank you for responding. Would you say that I can do the following with DE9 now (with current version)

1. Create a database Frontend that can be used on my webpage with login accounts (cloud-based or whatever, but not remote-desktop)

2. Design an app for the database

3. Integrate a QR-code scanner to access the database

There are many reasons why I see it as a Sinking ship. But of course I feel sorry for that because I think DE had potential to be something great! And yes I am honest, It is not worth being dishonest here!

1. The web-page is one of the worst I have ever seen (seriously what is this?).

2. When it comes to building Customer satisfaction you have to develop and inform customers of new features whatever, but as I see it, regarding the DE9, there is like nothing! When I was talking with a DE guy he said that it was possible to build apps, use QR scanner, Use the DB with a cloud service. However, when I now read this on DE homepage I'm seriously thinking that the support-guy was lying!

"Over the next months we will keep on adding to DE9 till we have the 66% version which will be the release version of DE9 Developer for Windows and the final 33% will be when we add all the ready developed functionality for you to go up and beyond WIndows onto the web and the cloud."

As I see this, DE9 will only (maybe) suit my requirements with the 100% version, which I don't think will be released within the next months. Maybe within the next 10 years? Sorry, thats the true thoughts I have!

Sincerely

//Daniel

Hi Daniel

Using HTML integration in DE9 you can do anything - that is like having unlimited custom defined functions.

Re website - its the design that probably needs some polishing, but back end functionality is all there.

What I think is the main issue, is that there is a lot of functionality which is there but not yet properly documented or communicated.

I am very confident that in the coming weeks as the 33% increases, we shall have the best DE ever.

Kind regards

Josef

Hi Daniel and the rest of you.

Dataease is almost 40 years of IT history. There is not many software products around with that "pedigree" and it is a history of good and bad.

It is no secret that Dataease got it as wrong with our WIndows version as we got it right with our DOS version. The problem wasn't as much that we got it wrong but more that we were unable to admit it and change the direction.

I say we, because I talk on behalf of Dataease but personally I quit working for Dataease because I disagreed with the direction the product was headed and I didn't see any future in it. This was in 1994.

I went on setting up a string of companies and worked with everything from Lotus Notes, PowerBuilder, Sybase, Oracle etc. I've a BSc in Software Development and my thesis was "Font independent OCR" which we did in Microsoft Macro Assembler (Machine code) so I know my way around the inside of a computer.

Over the years I always looked back in on Dataease when they advertised a new version like DFW 6.0, 6.5, 7.0, WebEase and Web Publisher and every time I got the same despairing feeling as I sense you have. They did it once, why can't they get it right again?

In 2007 I was working on saving large "wrecked" IT Projects. It always surprised me how one could spend so much money on something that should be simple and that led me to think of all the complex projects that was implemented in DFD. Projects that had no right to be in a simple product like DFD, but worked better than any competitor, was more flexible - could be changed on a daily basis at almost no cost.

I wondered if they were still around. I found the website and sent an email to the owner and one thing led to the other and we secured the right to develop a Web product on top of Dataease.

And this horrible web-page as you so rightly put it was developed in DataEase for Web over 10 years ago and has been maintained like most Dataease apps - add hoc.

Yes, it is horrible but it is Dataease and we know it is crap and that we have ignored it but there is a good reason for that and that is that we focus our resources on developing the product.

Dataease has been in maintenance mode long before we took over and we freely admit that the day to day running of anything but the development department is a left hand job. The website and all the products available has as a primary goal to maintain existing customers not to recruit new ones.

Dataease is a building site and at the moment we focus on building the house before we paint it, do the garden and invite customers inside.

The main reason for releaseing DE9 Beta 33% is for existing customers to see and play with the new features and as we move forward they can test what we refer to on our website.

DE9 Beta 33% is to show how much of what we intend to put into this product which is currently available to the users. In truth there is much more available in there already than 33% but as you have pointed out we haven't documented or talked about it yet so in that aspects it could just as well not be there.

DE9 still have 100% of the functionality of all previous DataEase versions plus at least another 100% so it is already the biggest updated ever in Dataease History.

You might think that we are a sinking ship and you won't be alone in thinking that but that ideas or belief is in itself a sunken ship ;-)

Everyone that now work for Dataease left the sinking ship decades ago, and what we are doing is a salvage operation.

Salvaging a 40 year old software can be compared to salvaging The Wasa or Mary Rose, but our goal is not to make a museum piece but a fully working ship that not only can be used - it will be in this day and age what Dataease for DOS was back in 1980/90s.

We freely admit that it is a hard job - particularly to see the idea of Dataease or rather the success of Dataease - in a modern context.

Understanding is not something that can be rushed and we have got it wrong more times than not but we gradually edge closer to the goal. 

It has taken much longer than we thought when we started, but then again if we had known how hard it was/is we most likely wouldn't have taken it on.

But now to your list:
1. Create a database Front-end that can be used on my web page with login accounts (cloud-based or whatever, but not remote-desktop)

This crap website is all that so you could have been doing that for over 10 years. The only problem has been that we were never interested in releasing another "developers" product. Dataease is about enabling non-programmers to build systems for their business and that is the hard job we are focusing on now. How to enable the functionality we have so everyone can use it like you could in DFD.

2. Design an app for the database

Same as for one.

3. Integrate a QR-code scanner to access the database

This is just a simple Javascript integration and has already been done many times for many clients, we even have QR integration for LegEasyWeb apps on top of DFD 5.x

There is in this day and age almost no companies that try to do what we try to do and the reason for that is very obvious if you sit on this side of the table. It is almost and impossible task. Every bit of code and feature we publish need to be supported, documented and maintained which is why we have only used DataEase for Web directly with customers or via select partners. 

Our goal however is the original idea of Dataease which is enabling the business owner or the entrepreneur to develop a flexible and state of the art solution for their business or idea on their own.

So you have to answer your own questions:

1. Is there anything better out there that will take you quicker and better to your goal and if so you should choose that.
2. If Dataease is the way you want to go, can you wait till our functionality is ready for the general public?
3. If not, do you have a budget to hire one of our partners to help you achieve your goal?

We can't tell or advice you what to do but we can tell you an advice on what we do and where we are headed.

1. Finish DE9 Developer to a standard that we feel it have the potential to recruit NEW users to Dataease (no version has done this since 4.53)
2. Publish our new interacive website that will enable users to get a full benefit from all the features of the product.
3. Publish all our support tools for deploying, maintaining, customize/personalize your Dataease Application.
4. Set up a new support company to educate partners and develop solutions in Dataease together with partners/entrepreneurs.

Nobody is more aware of the shortcomings of our product, our website, our sales approach, or support and our documentation than us and both we and you suffer from that every day but Rome wasn't built in a day and we simply need to take the time it takes to get it right and only with a great product can we fix all of the above.

Lincoln, 10th February 2020


Ulrik Jacob Hoegh-Krohn
CEO

Hello Ulrik. Thank you for the in-depth answer.

As an MSc Engineer in Product Development and interaction-design I'm not that into programming. However, I really regret that I did not learn how to program SQL and C#. DataEase seems like it has (had) good potential to make everyone a programmer without the need of formal education. Simplicity and flexibility might be your slogan, but I think it has to be revised since that does not apply to current versions. Nowadays I see it more simple to pay someone with programming skills to do the work! But the flexibility is of course only an advantage if you have programming skills and that is the main reason why I choose DE (because I don't have programming skills). At this point I only se DE good for one thing, which is building MVP's for further development in SQL. I guess you will still have your loyal DOS-users as customers a bit more, but getting new customers with a program that is based on DOS and a homepage from the same era will probably not gain more customers. Even you as a loyal DE-user, BSc and CEO is probably aware that the demand for SQL programmers these days is super high? But why are SQL programmers that coveted? - Certainly because there is no other good options!

I normally don't want to complain, thats not my personallity, but in this case I feel that I have to because only that will make you seeing the sides where you need to put some effort to develop and maybe gain the customer and users trust. I wish you all the best with what I would say a Sinking Ship (By the way Vasa/Wasa was salvaged within 2 years from the first time it was raised from the sea-bed, How long has DE9 been developed and how long before it is ready to be "compeeting" with normal programming that can do everything?)

Sincerely,

Daniel Kron

MSc and CEO  

Hi again Daniel.

Nothing you say is exactly the same as we have been thinking.

YOU are exactly the right kind of customer for us. What you say about yourself fit our target profile 100%. 

Website - lets get that out of the way first.
We need a website to service existing customers but we won't wast time and money on fixing that before we have a product we will promote as a new offering. Everything we sell today is to help existing customers that has stayed loyal to us.

Further.
"Nowadays I see it more simple to pay someone with programming skills to do the work!"
"But why are SQL programmers that coveted? - Certainly because there is no other good options!"

These are the main reasons why me ad my team decided to "salvage" DataEase. 

You get us completely wrong. We are not the people that ran Dataease into the ground. We are not motivated on carrying on a 40 year old software company just for the sake of it.

We strongly believe that if you manage to make a modern product that people take to as quickly and easily as DFD the demand for SQL programmers will crash. 

I have worked extensively with SQL and it is an absolute dog and the worst part of it is that everything that made it a good idea is no longer true. It was made to be 1 keep transactions as small as possible to make it "fast" over bad lines and 2 to allow different systems to talk to each other.

1. There is no longer any need.
2. They don't talk to each other because each dialect has morphed so far that there are now new standards on top of SQL to allow different SQL dialects to talk.

The IT industry is extremely inefficient and expensive and ripe for the picking. 

We feel that we have a responsibility to all those that invested in developing in Dataease which is why we have made several LegEasy versions but we are very aware that if there is to be a future we will need to attract new users and young users. 

So the same way that salvaging the Wasa maybe only took 2 years, the restoration took 20 if we follow that analogy.

To make something complex appear simple is much harder than one think.

For us there is no point in rushing as we have already lost the majority of our user base and the ones we still have we have looked after well since we took over the running of this ship.

We need to get it right more than get it fast and the way we look on Dataease is not as a 40 year old company but a startup. 

When we feel we are ready we will move into marketing mode and to get there as fast as possible we keep as low a profile as possible.

"How long has DE9 been developed and how long before it is ready to be "compeeting" with normal programming that can do everything?)"

We can already do everything and in most cases more than what you call "normal programming" and we have been able to do that for over a decade at least, but we don't want to go down that direction. We are developing Dataease and not a normal programming tool that can do everything in theory but very little that a normal person can achieve.

"I normally don't want to complain, thats not my personallity, but in this case I feel that I have to because only that will make you seeing the sides where you need to put some effort to develop and maybe gain the customer and users trust."

When I started to work with Sapphire this was the standard way people tried to motivate "us" and to be honest it only demotivated the ones that tried to do their best and the rest didn't care. When I started to work with Dataease again the relationship inside Dataease as well as with the customers and partners was toxic.

We have changed that over the years and there is now very little hostility and most of our remaining customers love talking to us and trust that we actually act in their best interest and develop the product.

We have taken this slow as we want to get it right but we have a plan and we will not deviate from it or stress about it. 

If people don't trust us, think that we are outdated and useless and know a better way of getting their job done then we are happy for them to use something else.

But as I said in the beginning.

You are the kind of person we develop this product for but you might just be here too early and there is very little we can do about that.

No hard feeling our end and we thank you for your input and your effort to get us off our lazy backsides and if you go down a different route now you are always welcome back  to have another go.

All the best,

Ulrik Krohn.

Sorry, didn't really answer your question there:

We plan to have something we think is usable for new users before the end of this year.

Hi Ulrik. Thank you for answering my question, or at least what could be seen as the question. Anyway I have to say that you have good points and I like you and that you take the time to write me answers, that's good customer care. I hope that you are aware that I really wanted this to suit all my needs since I think the product have/had potential (the goal and/-or intention is very good), but as a customer I have no clue how long I have to wait until I can develop a DB that suits my requirements and to be honest the history of DE somewhat comes as a reminder when I now have to decide what to use, DE or SQL.

Regarding the website:

"Website - lets get that out of the way first.

We need a website to service existing customers but we won't wast time and money on fixing that before we have a product we will promote as a new offering. Everything we sell today is to help existing customers that has stayed loyal to us."

- Well I agree that it might not be super important to develop a better website before you actually have something to offer, but as the technology with social media etc. emerges rapidly nowadays I would suggest you to take a closer look on this matter anyway to at least get a new target group interested in what your future offer might be (That's just a strategic advice). I should be honest here, the only reason I actually got into DE was because of my father who is one of DE loyal customers from the beginning of DE. However, even he does not see reasons for me to use DE now since it looks like it is not comparable to the abilities of "normal" SQL. (He uses DE with remote desktop).

Regarding motivation:

Hi Ihor. I have dealt with alot of abstract algebra back in the days when I was an Engineering student and I certainly know about Alan Turing and the Enigma project. However, one have to bare in mind that the technology has developed rapidly since this. I want to keep up with the development and be a step ahead of the development and not behind it!

Wish you a good day

//Daniel